Jamie: I am a lawyer in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I have a bankruptcy firm that we’ve operated since 1991. And we focus primarily in the area of consumer bankruptcy law, and serve the entire state of Wisconsin.

Jamie: After I graduated college, I went back into a family business that failed, and experienced going through a business chapter 11, personally, for the business, and a personal bankruptcy for my father, which informed me on what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to go into the law and wanted to help people. And, you know, being part of the bankruptcy process from a client standpoint really helped me to understand challenges that those that need to file bankruptcy go through. And I wanted to build a firm based on core values that really addressed the needs and the emotional side that people go through when they have to file for bankruptcy.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, certainly, operating from a set of core values makes us unique. But the other thing that makes us unique is that even though our primary focus is bankruptcy, and helping people get rid of debt, we don’t leave it at just that, we have more of a holistic approach that helps people get rid of debt. And just as important, helps them get back on their feet, to rebuilding their credit after bankruptcy. And it’s not something that a lot of firms do. We invest in the credit rebuilding process, pretty heavily, because we want to see people reach a level of success and have a bright financial future, after they exited from Miller and Miller.

Jamie: Well, it’s interesting, because I was actually thinking about that this morning. And I remember from a business standpoint, spending a lot of time 20 years ago, on my own, or maybe having a smaller support team, where we would have a lot of leads coming in. And we would get on the phone with those people and have conversations and sell them the benefits of Miller and Miller, and then hope they hired. If they didn’t hire during that phone call, we would just tell them to get back to us and hope to hear from them again in the future. We went through this transition probably almost 10 to 12 years ago, where we changed our business model in a way that allowed us to maximize conversion rates on the leads that we had coming in, as opposed to increasing the number of leads that we had, working the leads that we had to their highest capabilities. With proper lead follow up that was something that was important to us and something that we continue to work on today.

Jamie: I am confident that the way that we treat our clients from our core values to our mission and vision is at a high level and a differentiator in how we handle things in the marketplace. That we’re able to handle that on a legal side of things and shepherd people through the process. But the reason I run it like a business is because I’m so confident in the way that we help people that running it like a business allows me and allows the firm to connect with more people. So I look at it as that we have a lot of competitors in our state. And we have a lot of competitors that are not doing as good of a job assisting clients as we are. And my motivation is if we scale it appropriately, that we’re serving clients at such a high level, and I’m so proud of the way that we serve those clients, running it like a business allows us to serve more people and benefit a wider piece of the community at a much higher level.

Jamie: Our biggest challenge with workflow is communicating with our clients at a high level to help them understand the documents that are needed to have a successful bankruptcy filing. And the amount of touches that we need to have with a client to get all the paperwork needed is sometimes almost infinite. It’s just so hard to communicate with a client what is needed, and how do we get it. We’ve always been always looking for a tech resource that will help us communicate with clients on a high level. And we’ve gone through this journey of trying to develop that software on our own. We had used client information gathering software provided us by our bankruptcy software programs. We came across Lexria, and saw that as a platform that was easy, relatively easy, a menu driven-type system that allowed our clients to have an easier, more straightforward understanding of how to get us the documents and what documents are needed. And it was also a platform that allows our staff to work closely, more closely with our clients, at the same time within the Lexria portal. So we’re able to partner with them to get documents in the portal, as well as monitor where the clients are within the process of giving us the Lexria documents.

Jamie: Well, you know, if we look back: the bankruptcy laws changed in 2005. Prior to 2005, the only thing we needed to provide the bankruptcy court were car titles in tax returns. So we just needed two years of tax returns and car titles. That’s all we needed. Now we need car titles, tax returns, bank statements, pay stubs, a whole litany of documents. So the list of documents has grown from two items that we need to probably 10 or 15. And so finding the right software that works in tandem with our process, to help us gather those documents as efficiently as possible, with as few touches with the client as possible, is something that we’re always striving to do. And is going to continue to be an ongoing journey to make this process as simple from our internal workflow, as well as a process that allows the client to have success in getting the documents that we need as easily as possible.

Kristina: We’re one of the largest filers in the state of Wisconsin, if not the largest. You know, we file over 100 cases every month. So we definitely have to find efficiencies where we can. For us, what makes us unique, more than anything is everybody on our team has a true desire to help our clients. They’re more than just a number. They’re people that we really want to see get relief from their debts. They’re people that we really want to get back up on their feet and get a fresh start. We’ve built a three-step process to help our clients do that to alleviate their stress and get them out, get them out of debt and get them back up on their way. So for us that unique part is is just really part of our culture. It’s really ingrained in there. And it’s this attitude and belief that we’re here to help people. And we’re here to get them a fresh start.

Kristina: Sure. So my role has evolved. I’ve been with the firm for seven years, I have overseen a little bit of everything, but my current role is Chief Operating Officer. So I manage the day to day of the business and make sure that clients have really a seamless experience with us from the moment they raised their hand and they talk to us all the way until we discharge their debts. You know, my role is to kind of shepherd that process so that every client no matter who they speak to really feels like they’ve been taken care of. And it’s been a least stressful process as possible.

Kristina: Oh, yeah. So I mean, as we’ve grown over the years, and in COVID as we shrink, (because COVID, you know, hit the bankruptcy industry hard), we’ve really had to adapt our processes to meet those demands. So I can’t say we’re never not looking at change, we’re never not looking at how can we be more efficient? How can we do things better? It’s certainly something that as technology has evolved, we’ve embraced it. And there’s also been times that we’re still human and change is hard because you have habits. Your getting out of your habits can be the hardest thing to break. But, I can definitely say, you know, from where we were seven years ago, where it was, you know, everything got mailed to the office and it would be piecemealed and you’d have paper files and everything stuck in paper files and paperclipped together to where we are today where we are paperless and we utilize Lexria as an online portal so clients have everything in one place: that’s a huge 180 in terms of how we handle just the actual process of getting their files together.

Kristina: I think as technology has changed, embracing various softwares for the different things everywhere, from, a voice over IP system for our phones, help us, you know, with clients wherever we are, regardless of if we were home during COVID or if we’re actually in the office, to Lexria, I mean, quite frankly has been such a game changer with how we deal with our clients. To be able to tell clients who are already feeling very overwhelmed with all the documents they need to provide during the bankruptcy process that, “hey, everything can go into this one portal, you can save and come back later, you can do it all in one shot, it’s really up to you.” And they’re used to that kind of way of thinking, because they’re already used to other types of things they might use in their day to day lives where, “oh, I gotta log into a portal, and I have to do this”: it’s very simple for them. So it’s a seamless transition for us to be able to say, “here’s a portal, as you need to do it, go through it, take your time, or do it all at once.” But it is definitely something that, puts our clients at ease and makes them feel a little more in control of their life. And so for us, that’s been a really unique value proposition to give to our clients, as well as helping us to change our processes and the technologies that we use to get our clients through the bankruptcy process.

Kristina: It gives them a sense of control back. For our clients, when they come to us, they’re not in the greatest place all the time. Nobody wakes up in the morning saying hurray for bankruptcy, right? That’s not usually how their day starts. A lot of it is that they’re not feeling in control of their lives, because they may have creditors bothering them. They may have bills piling up, they may be worried about losing their house or their car, or getting their wages garnished. These are all things that really make them feel out of control. And then we give them Lexria, and as funny as it can sound it’s a little bit of control back: “So okay, I can step through this at my own pace, nobody’s rushing me, nobody’s pushing me, I know exactly what I need. And if I’m not ready to do it, I can at least look so that I know what I need next time I log in.” So giving them mentally that control back to them has been helpful for them, because they feel like they’re in control of their data at that point, and how quickly they can get through the process.

Kristina: I don’t think anything with the clients necessarily other than more have embraced it than we thought they would. So that is good. But internally, having a product like Lexria in place has allowed us to change our operations process completely. We went from having paralegals who did all document collection and prepare the petition and got everything ready for the case to go to the attorney for filing to we now have a more customer service-centric team that work directly with the clients to get them into Lexria and answer their questions and help them really understand the process and make it seamless before it goes to the paralegals to do the petition preparation and get everything ready. So Lexria has allowed us to put a client success team in place that really connects with the client on a deeper level to reassure them that they’re in good hands and we have the technology available to them to make this a very easy process for them.

Kristina: For implementation, it was very easy. You guys made it very, very simple to put through, you’ve been very receptive to any feedback that we’ve had, which has been great when you’re working with a new technology and a new partner to have someone who’s so open to making tweaks or listening to feedback and trying to make the product better. It truly is an outstanding partnership from that perspective. With our implementation, it’s been some of the little tweaks that has really made it a great product, whether it’s the follow up emails that go out, just to gently remind clients to log in and complete things, or internal things on the dashboard, that at a glance, we can see when we need these clients completed by so we know when we’re reaching out exactly what we need to do. And it’s been that implementation and that partnership to make these things happen that has been really, for us, really great. It’s been very beneficial in making sure we’re utilizing Lexria at a high level and getting the best out of our clients.

Kristina: We were pretty thorough ahead of time: we had a lot of demos. I think the biggest thing that I would tell anybody before they did it (and you were kind enough to allow us to do it) is we were able to use the client perspective and login as the client and and go through it as the client. And that really gave us kind of a sense of, “okay, this is what the client will need. Does this make sense? How does our current process fit into it? What would we might have to change with our processes to make this work? Do we want to make those changes?” Those types of questions, but seeing those before we bought into it really helped us make a solid decision before implementing.

Kristina: I would say embrace it. Lean into it, even though it might seem kind of like an uphill battle, or a little scary, because there’s a little extra work in the beginning. It will pay out in spades long term, and you’ll be so happy you did it. You’ll wonder why you didn’t do it sooner.

Kristina: No, I don’t think there’s a sweet spot. I think it’s scalable, whether you’re doing five cases a month, 50 or 100. I really think that it answers all the questions to what’s needed in the bankruptcy process. I mean, we went from about 10 months ago now, before we first started with Lexria, it was still very manual. Yes, clients were now emailing documents in but we were piecemealing these things and having to save them into their matter and having to update literally manual lists of what we have and what we don’t have, and then going back to the client with what we need. It was a very manual process. There had to be a person reaching out to a client every week. And with Lexria that doesn’t have to happen anymore. Now we have it where everything is in one place. Clients get automatic reminders. We’re only checking in maybe every two, three weeks, and even then, we’re able to go into the Lexria dashboard and see what was the last time they logged in, how far along are they? So we can have a very pointed conversation with the client about what’s happening, and why aren’t things moving forward? Are they stuck on something? Versus before, it was always “okay, I still don’t have these documents, just get them to me,” because we didn’t know what we’re stuck on necessarily. I would say the sweet spot: I don’t think it’s a matter of volume. Truly, I think it’s how you want to serve your clients. And for us, our thought is if we can make this as stress free and efficient as possible, so they don’t feel overwhelmed with what they have to do, then that’s our goal. And Lexria really helps us to implement that. And I don’t think any business whether again, it’s 5, 50, or 100 cases they file a month could go wrong there.

Kristina: No. It was over email. We had tried various things where we asked clients to submit it to like Dropbox, or to submit directly through this Connect portal. But clients didn’t really want to do that. Because 1) the technology didn’t make sense to them all the time. But then 2) there was a long list of documents needed in bankruptcy, and they’re like, “Well, I submitted documents,” and it’s like, yeah, but you submitted 2, we need 10. And now it’s going back and forth, and it frustrates the client, because they’re like, I need more?, I need more? When do I stop? And it was always that very manual process: somebody had to look at it, and then have to tell them what we’re missing. And the client would get frustrated, because they’re like, “Well, I know, you’re telling me I need those things I thought I gave them to you. But now you’re telling me that’s not what you need.” And it could be something as simple as “No, you gave us your checking account statement, but we need your savings account statement.” And having those conversations with clients could get really frustrating. But with Lexria, it steps them through it. So you have to connect every account and when you can connect your bank account, most people will have their checking and their savings through the same exact bank. So it’s not a matter of having to upload your checking account statements, and then upload your savings account statements. You connect them and both get pulled in automatically, which is just lovely.

Kristina: It eliminates a lot of frustration on our clients’ part because they know exactly what they need to give us to get their bankruptcy filed, because it’s just stepping them through the process with very easy to understand questions and very easy to understand prompts when they need to upload documents.

Kristina: Yessssss. Clients are still going to have questions. Obviously, that doesn’t stop, they’re still going to ask questions. But what’s nice is the questions they’re asking are actually better quality. You know, it’s not questions like, “Oh, do you need this pay stub?” They know that because they’re in Lexria and Lexria is asking them. Instead, they might ask a question like, “Oh, I want to take out a 401k loan before I file. Can I do that?” Right? That’s a question that we wouldn’t expect Lexria to be able to answer, we would handle that. But now we’re getting those higher quality questions that we get from clients and answer for clients efficiently versus we’re getting 30 questions about their documents, and only one that is really of high quality that needs a good answer to.

Kristina: Do it. I mean, you know, honestly, if it’s something that you really lean into the technology and you embrace changing your processes and you’re willing to stick with it, you’re not gonna regret it. It really is great. And our filing software is Best Case. Lexria does not integrate with Best Case. That hasn’t stopped us because we still find the efficiencies so great in helping us that we don’t need the integration to Best Case to have Lexria still save us a lot of time. And because of that we would rather use a system that makes our clients’ lives easier and more efficient than using a system that doesn’t but does have an integration, if that makes sense. No matter what, we have to prepare the petition, it doesn’t get automatically prepared. Any anybody who tells you that I would look a little funny at them. You have to prepare it, you have to review it: that doesn’t change. Lexria doesn’t change that. But it does take the stress off the client and the stress off the paralegals to get everything we need at a high level. And even though it’s not integrated with Best Case, it doesn’t stop you from still getting all the information you need to prepare the petition and the bundle that we can download. We have the PDFs that we need for the Trustees right there. We have the text file, the Excel file, where we don’t even have to retype everything: we can just copy and paste it to where we need to in the petition. There are efficiencies that even though there’s not an integration, there’s still stuff that helps to save time because the information is there.

Kristina:

1. We have been able to scale more quickly with Lexria. Had we not had Lexria, I would have had to hire more employees to handle the increased client need. With the growth that we’re experiencing: while we’ve had to add employees to accommodate that growth, because of Lexria we haven’t had to hire as many. If I’ve had to hire 4 people to do documents, it would have otherwise been 6.
2. Lexria has taken paper-chasing out of the equation.
3. We’ve been able to re-focus how we handle the client from the onset. We’ve been able to have more impactful conversations about repossessions, debts, the process, reassurance, etc.

Kristina: It’s a lovely sentiment to want to partner with the client – I understand that thought process. Our job is to not walk them through the document gathering, but instead to represent them at the highest level and move past this as quickly as possible and help them get the fresh start. There’s nothing stopping a law firm from getting on a call and getting what they need. We screen share and show Lexria as a partner: have a good conversation, dive into the software and show them how you do it, and once they submit it we’ll review it all. It’s not a completely hands-off system. We’re just not holding their hands from A-Z. We still check-in. When we check in, we use Lexria – we know we walked them through it in the initial call, so we can use the data in Lexria to check in with a targeted conversation about the client, and what’s holding them up. When we have targeted conversations with clients, they’re surprised that we’re that in tune to where they are. We can help them through it, and sometimes it’s easy and other times it’s more complicated. It allows us to see what they see. Before Lexria they would try to explain it to us, and that was challenging. Now we speak the same language.